It’s been a struggle staying active and healthy and creative as this pandemic stretches on and on and on, and I just haven’t felt much like writing or creating or editing and adding music to the audio I recorded with brooks back in January. Often the basics have felt like just too much work. But here it is! Just in time for new surges in hospitalizations. Death is sitting right down on the couch with us and eating our snacks these days, so we might as well talk about it.
So although I often thought of Eddie Izzard’s bit on “Cake or Death” through the making of this episode, let’s all have a bit of cake AND death, shall we?
My thanks, as always, to Flora, whose steady support, love, humor, and real talk have made this pandemic so much better, at least for me. I don’t know about you.
Our theme song is “Start Again” by Monk Turner + Fascinoma. All other music was made by me on Ableton Live, except for the outro music, which I made on Soundation.
The podcast story on Elisabeth Kübler-Ross that I reference in the intro is Radiolab's “The Queen of Dying”.
Here’s the transcript:
brooks: My name's brooks kasson. I don't know what else to say, except that I'm a Scorpio. I guess I should start, the origins, not that I knew at the time, stretch back to when I was 32 years old and I joined for some inexplicable reason, I joined the Austin Memorial and Burial Society. So I have been a member of that for 40 some odd years. And I'd get the newsletters, and they were always interesting to me. And that particular organization now is called Funeral Consumers Alliance of Central Texas. And Nancy Walker is the Executive Director. She's fabulous. Fabulous.
And it may have been her that introduced me to Jo Jensen, who was an Oncology Chaplain at Seton at the time. And I had, all within a matter of a couple of weeks, I had heard about Death Cafes, and my ears perked up. And then the topic came around again. It was about 8 years ago. I met up with Jo and told her that I was interested in starting a Death Cafe, and I think that had occurred to her as well. And somehow we met up, and we decided to start or to hold a Death Cafe. Of course, neither one of us had ever been to one, but we were both interested in it, hers with the end of life process with her patients and me by whatever fluke, natural inclination I suppose. And so we found or went to the Death Cafe International website and learned a little bit about the origins of Death Cafe.
Voiceover: From the early 1980s, Swiss sociologist and anthropologist Bernard Crettaz and his wife Yvonne worked together studying the rites and rituals of death. After her death in 1999 and his retirement in 2002, Dr. Crettaz held the first of his Cafés Mortels, a salon of sorts that he facilitated gently with only a couple of rules: participants must always exhibit deep listening and rigorous honesty. The purpose was to pierce the taboo of speaking openly about death. Dr. Crettaz continued to host his Cafés Mortels until 2014.
In 2010, Jon Underwood, a web developer in the UK, was working on his own collection of projects about death. In his research, he read about Café Mortel and decided to hold an event in his living room in Hackney, London. He established the current Death Cafe model, built a website, standardized protocols, and spread the idea globally, with thousands of Death Cafes currently in existence in dozens of countries. A key innovation in Jon’s model was the addition of tea and cake to every Death Cafe event.
brooks: And traditionally, and of course I jumped all over this one, you served tea and cakes at a Death Cafe. Very British, very European. And I was already attracted to that idea. I grew up in the military and the first, in, when I was 4 and 5, we were in England right after World War II. So I have that European love of tea and pomp and circumstance kind of way imbued in the early neurology and preferences of me.
And I went out to the Salvation Army and bought dozens of tea cups and saucers, and of course made a big production of the whole thing. And we ended up in that first, and we advertised it, we spread the word, and we had like 50 people show up, way too many to do a Death Cafe effectively, but nonetheless, it was very new. And so we ended up with, Jo and I broke the group up into two circles of 25 people each, and then each one of us facilitated a circle.
And I think we had two or three meetings in that mode. And then it became obvious, a big circle was too much to handle and have any kind of intimacy, so we changed it to four tops. So we had four people in a group and then Jo and I would move around from table to table and just kind of sit in on the conversation. Every meeting I baked homemade brownies that were chock full of pecans and extra chocolate chips in there, and people brought their own water or tea or whatever it is they wanted and ate chocolate while we talked about death. If you're going to talk about death, you have to have chocolate. It is just part of the deal. And the format that we used there was a talking stick, and we used, had prompt cards, like a deck of cards with some questions on it that people could use for, to get their small group begun.
Rod: For you to have 50 people show up on your very first one, clearly it had some resonance in the community. I mean, it must’ve met a need that wasn’t being met elsewhere for it to immediately just jump off like that.
brooks: I agree.
Rod: What do you think appealed to you? You said you joined the group about funeral information when you were 32. What do you think it is about death and talking about death that connected with you?
brooks: Aside from the fact that I'm a Scorpio, and I'm constantly in transformation, which means that I'm involved in a process of loss on a very regular basis. And I'm very aware of that. I can't answer why I joined it back when I was 32, except that it was interesting to me.
You know, it's not like I've had a near-death experience. I can't tell you it's something glamorous like that. And it's not that I had my favorite childhood friend die in front of me. None of that. I didn't experience death in my family in any unusual way, other than losing grandparents, and then eventually in my 60s losing, my parents died. So the only thing, I mean, I'm just making up stuff here. All I can pin it on is just my natural inclination to focus on the loss piece.
I grew up in the military. My dad is, was, an officer. So that whole mindset, and I come from a long, I mean, my mother was second generation military as well. So I come from my long line of warriors and that's all about following orders, doing just what you're told to do, and killing people. Now, you don't want to inspect the killing people part. It was never talked about. The first dead body that I was presented with was from my father's mother, and I didn't want to look at it. So I didn't, with the open casket. So I didn't. Avoiding, avoiding, avoiding was how I was brought up with the topic.
OK. So here's a, maybe a better answer, especially in this culture. We, where it's a consumer culture. We are about getting things; we're not about releasing things. And all I know is that I've never been interested, for instance, in the beginning of life process. Didn't want to be a midwife. Didn't, wasn't particularly interested in birthings, but am very interested in the letting go piece, partially because it feels in this culture so off balanced, because we don't look at losses as a part of the process. It's something to be avoided. It's something be not talked about, run away from if you possibly can, or buy your way out. And I absolutely disagree with that. As I've aged, claiming death as part of my life is, and owning it, and keeping the topic current, is all a really important part of valuing life.
Rod: Really the one Death Cafe that I experienced personally with you was on Zoom. I feel like I kind of missed a whole dimension of it with the cake and the tea and everything. That seems like such a valuable piece to it. Do you miss that aspect of it in the COVID time?
brooks: Well, that's a great question, because to be honest with you, when it became apparent that there weren't going to be in-person gatherings, I thought, do I want to give this up? And the answer was absolutely not. And especially in these times with the topic being so prevalent and ubiquitous. I forced myself to learn the mechanics of Zoom, and I wondered would I be able to hold space electronically with people being little squares on the screen? Would I be able to create intimacy under those conditions?
But let me back up and say too, Rod, that every Death Cafe, even mine, from month to month, every Death Cafe is different, and every facilitator runs their group in a different way, so there's a different flavor. There's a nurse in town who started a second Death Cafe, maybe a couple of years ago. I don’t know whether it’s still going or not. But again, presumably because of her background being a nurse, the flavor of, and I never went to one, I just, Heather Black, that's her name. I just had lunch with her once. And her offering in a Death Cafe, I think, was more practical things, your paperwork and the physical things that happen.
So as you perhaps recall in the Death Cafe you went to, my interest is more in the emotional, spiritual, transformative aspect of death. And it's really important to me to hold that space so that people can fall into that kind of intimacy. The topic is such a taboo and delicate topic that it really, whatever entry door is available, it’s important to open it because again, the topic is so not discussed in our culture.
Rod: Did you shape yours intentionally to be what it is? How did you prepare to start? How did you know how you wanted to run it?
brooks: We became, if you can imagine, a circle of 25 people for the first few events down to a table, 8 or 10 tables of 4 apiece, automatically the intimacy has increased. Right? So, not that I thought about that at the time, it just became obvious that we didn't want to do the big circles. So we switched to the talking stick and the smaller tables, and then eventually Jo had retired, she’d gotten tired of co-facilitating, and so I had the choice of, do I continue this on my own or not? And I wanted to, so I moved, wondering if it would survive, but moved the venue to here to South Austin, and began more like what you experienced when you came to the Zoom meeting.
So the most I've ever had, the biggest number I've ever had here in South Austin is probably 15 or 16, maybe 14, right around in there, crammed into this small room, people sitting on floors and so forth. But typically the numbers tended to float around 8 to 10, sometimes as few as 6 if it was raining and snowing outside or whatever. But it stabilized in a smaller group. Now what I'm using is what you experienced, is what's called the Conversation Cafe format.
And so I'm finding that, and just briefly what that is, you go around, and you open the circle by going, each person says their name and why they're here and what they expect at the beginning. And then the body of a meeting is open to open discussion. And then right before the end, you go back around the circle again. It's like a closing of the circle, and everybody says, this is what I got out of the meeting. And that's a good way to recall what it is, but it also lets everybody else in the group know that their place and their offerings are important to the group as a whole. And with this format that I'm using now, there's so much richness, Rod, and people discover things about their own beliefs and talk about their own fears, and sometimes, much of the time, for instance, it doesn't have to do directly with death, but it always has something to do with loss.
Rod: I was curious who tends to come. Are they typically people, I guess not, typically people that are dealing with a recent loss of a loved one or something like that?
brooks: It tends to be people of age that are aging into this part of our lives. And there are some young people that come that have insights that just blow me away. It could be that they're dealing with their own health issues perhaps, and sometimes not. Sometimes they're coming because, I don't know exactly why, but they're interested in the topic and/or there's not very many places that are open to the public that you can have truly safe, intimate discussions.
And so people are certainly, aren't required to talk in Death Cafe. On the other hand, in my opinion, they showed up for a reason, and I'd like to know what it is, so I'll do what I can to help them feel safe enough to speak. It's not about voyeurism for me. It's about participating in a group and in a topic that is delicate and difficult to talk about. So for me, at least, the structure is helpful in establishing the safety.
So people come as they're able to, or as they're drawn to, or as they want to. And sometimes they'll come like two times and then skip a time or two, come eight times in a row, that sort of thing. It just depends on where they are, and sometimes they'll be gone for six or eight months, and then all of a sudden they're back again. It's wonderful, I think, to have that kind of continuity and familiarity for me.
Rod: How has going online affected your turnout? I would think that in the time of a pandemic that people would be flocking to it.
brooks: Yes. And I think that certainly has drawn people back. And I have to say that the numbers have stayed stable, kind of where I was talking about, in and out of a dozen or so. But the other thing is at this stage of the pandemic, people are Zoomed out. I mean, they are just, enough of the electronic communication and connections, which is why I do my best to keep the electronic piece in the background and make intimacy a priority. So in order to do that, some structure is, in my opinion, is absolutely necessary, and so is the safety of not cross-talking, not having somebody want to fix if I break into tears or something. The scariest thing is to have somebody want to fix me or make me stop. But my emphasis is when somebody is indeed having a breakdown of tears and emotions that they are allowed to do that and begin to recognize their own strengths in being held energetically in the group.
And so I talk about that at the beginning of every meeting, that these are the parameters, and that silence is really important. So that for instance, if somebody makes an offering of an incident or whatever, then I ask that before somebody else speaks, and you could be all excited about, Oh, I have this other experience that's similar to that, that I want to talk about, but before they speak, I ask them to take a breath or two. And so what that does is that it allows the offering that has been made to land in everybody. And it helps make the gifts of people's feelings and experiences sacred.
Rod: You’ve been doing it for 8 years you said?
brooks: Seven and a half. Yeah. Come I think next June it'll be eight. Is that right?
Rod: How do you think it’s impacted you? How do you think it’s changed you to be doing this for so long?
brooks: It surprises me every time I say the number of years. Like really? Because it seems so ordinary. And I look forward to it because every single time, Rod, every single time, I have not been to, I have not experienced a crummy one, and every single time I come away feeling satisfied, like I've had a really good meal. And as a Scorpio, it's important to me to experience life in as much, with as much juice as possible. So I get a regular dose of that, which I absolutely crave and love and love to offer it. I do it for other people, and I do it for myself. I would not do this if it did not feed me. I'm too old for that kind of stuff at this point. And I never wanted to be and am not so inclined to be Mother Teresa anyway.
Rod: Where do you see it going from here? What do you think it would take for you to feel safe to do it in person again?
brooks: That's a good question. I will have to feel safe being in a closed room. And what I'm finding very interesting about COVID now is how different people have different levels of fear and safety around this particular virus. So, as we both know, there's people that don't come out of their house, and they still have their groceries delivered to the front door, and they spray them with Lysol or whatever before they bring them in. And then there's those that insist that there's no such thing as a virus, and they refuse to wear a mask. There's just all levels of how people deal with this. So I really won't know until I know, and part of it will be, am I comfortable being in a closed room?
And I wouldn't say, because I don't think it's a reasonable answer to put a pencil point on when there's a virus, then I'm going to do this, I mean, a vaccine, then I'm going to do so-and-so. I don't know that. I'll know it when I get there.
Rod: Have you developed any relationships out of it?
brooks: Oh, absolutely. Oh, sure. Sure. These days, of course, there's not much meeting outside, but I've had lunch with people and continued relationships or telephone calls or whatever, that sort of thing. I mean, seven and a half years is a long time to have a thread of a person in and out one's life. And so, yes, that's delightful.
Rod: How do you handle it if somebody dies, if there’s a regular who’s been coming, you said people come because of, they age into it. Have people come and gone?
brooks: Well, in fact, that has just recently happened. And so my way of handling it has been to reach out and talk to the spouse, which I was doing before the spouse died anyway. So it's more like a continuation of that. Or regular members, for instance, whose mom or dad's died, then I will express my own personal feelings and sympathy around that. But there's no like group collection and send her some flowers. There's none of that sort of thing going on.
Rod: Do people come with misconceptions about what it’s going to be? Have you ever had anybody say that was…?
Brooks: No, and I'm glad to say no. and part of that reason is that everybody that I know of, almost, has come because of a referral. So they come knowing a little bit of something about it, and maybe what has prompted it is the death of a parent or a pet or something like that. And I also, because I'll email them back and forth ahead of time, because especially now that we're on Zoom, I know who's going to show up because I send out a notice that Death Cafe is going to happen, and then these days, what I say is, if you want to come, you need to email me back and let me know that you're coming. And that way I have the chance to communicate with a newcomer and let them know how I run the meeting so that they can think, well, this isn't for me, or I'm intrigued. I think I'll show up. It's very important to me to maintain, to create and maintain the sanctity of the group, which I could do certainly when we were in physical proximity. And so that's one of the reasons why I'm careful about, for instance, not sending out the Zoom invitation to my full email list, because I want to know who's coming and that they are committed to a certain protocol.
Rod: You said a lot of it comes from referrals. Is that mostly how you, I don’t know if market is the right word, but mostly word of mouth, or do you, have you developed any relationships with hospitals, hospice?
brooks: Nope, Nope. It's all word of mouth. Yes. And I'm clear that although there's plenty of grieving that happens that this is not a grief group. I mean, I'm not qualified to run that. I don't have a social worker's license or whatever.
And I guess I would like to emphasize, it's not all about death. What it's really about is living. It's really about how do we be alive and hold in us and in our awareness, the fact that we will not be here forever. That's the entire point is that it's that kind of wholeness that I'm most interested in supporting, because it's so lopsided in this culture.
Rod: Well, I really appreciate your time. I think you were nervous about doing it. I hope you found it a comfortable experience.
brooks: Thank you. I did. I did indeed. Rod, thank you so much for asking and for prompting me to speak about what I love to do. It's been a delight.